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Re: What would you do?

Subject: Re: What would you do?
by CantaExigo on 2010/2/13 0:44:37

Quote:

KTC wrote:
@canta: so what would you do in the situation described?

I would ignore it. It would be none of my concern. Large pigeons chase sparrows away from breadcrumbs, and I see no need to intervene. It's the same concept. Nature takes care of itself.

Quote:

Aeternus wrote:
@Canta
I disagree. Humans have done LOTS to the world to harm it - developing and dumping of toxic wastes (and polluting in general), destroying important ecosystems (e.g. rainforests, marshlands), hunting certain species to extinction (e.g. the passenger pigeon) or near-extinction are but a few examples. Even if species die out naturally, we are at least speeding up this process and throwing off the balance of nature.

I agree that we are destroying ourselves, but by destroying the natural world around us, we are still destroying ourselves.

I think that we disagree based on a very important word: harm.

When you say that something is harmed, that means it is altered in a negative way from what it originally was. Pollution is negative to us. Nature is indifferent. Toxic wastes will be diluted with time, or organisms will evolve and adapt to replicate and feed off of the waste. This has been documented in nature. Species may go extinct at any rate, but do not forget that humans are also a species of this planet, and despite our high views of ourselves, our proclamations that we "own" this planet are hollow: Nature is apathetic. Even if we make every other multicellular organism extinct while miraculously staying alive ourselves, nature will eventually restore itself, perhaps long after we are extinct, but it eventually will restore itself.

To say that we are harming nature is absurd. The "damage" we do to nature is purely subjective. We perceive the situation as being negative from our own bias. We have a limited lifespan. Like I said before, All human existence is but a blink of an eye if we just look at the big picture. Seeing smog and pollution your whole life may make you worry, but 100 years is nothing compared to a 4 billion year history. Absolutely nothing.

Quote:

Jayshe wrote:
@Canta
I agree with Aeternus on this one. Just take a look at our usage of non-renewable energy sources...that's not something that nature can just heal up quickly. Humans are definitely affecting the balance of nature-the fear is if we go too far and do something that can't be undone.

Again, Jayshe, what does an energy source mean to you? If humans became extinct, what inherent value does a coal supply or a large underground reserve of oil mean? If nature loses all of its fossil fuel, do you think it devalues nature in some way? Absolutely not. As I said before, nature is indifferent. Energy sources only matter to humans. When we go green, it is selfish. It isn't for nature, it is for *us*.

I heard both you and Aeternus mention the "balance of nature". Nature is always in balance. Always. There is never an instant in time where it is out of balance. Nature is defined by what is, not what we think it is supposed to be. Nature isn't a picturesque meadow with wildflowers and butterflies, nature is the environment, and what the environment does. So long as the laws of physics and chemistry hold the universe together, humans will be unable to affect nature itself.

What we CAN affect, is our own ability to survive under nature's harsh balancing act. Everything we do to pollute the planet is another step towards our own extinction. It is nature's way of balancing itself. Nature by itself is indestructible.

Quote:

Wolfie wrote:
point: everything changes, everything adapts, everything lives on.

Exactly. Right on the mark. We cannot say that we are destroying nature just because we THINK we see negative things. We may call it "pollution", but nature just sees it as gas, no different from oxygen or carbon dioxide. We may call it "toxic waste", but nature just sees it as another chemical compound, no different from water or oil. Humans cannot destroy the planet or destroy nature. They can only destroy themselves.