I may not be the best person to start this topic... I've always been solidly pro-life, anti-abortion, ever since I fully understood what it was. But I'm having a hard time not talking about it lately, with the upcoming election and all else. And I don't see why I shouldn't talk about it... Why everyone I typically talk to (in my school) seems to think it's a taboo subject.
It shouldn't be. There is no reason I can think of (as long as it doesn't become a flame war or become too graphic) why it can't be discussed.
So, what do you think? I've always personally been pro-life, as I said before... I believe life begins at conception, and that is the moment when a person becomes a person, and at that point it fundamentally becomes murder.
What do you believe?

(This will become a debate in all likelyhood.
The only reason why I wasn't sure if I should be the one to start it was I really can't defend the pro-abortion side... So I have a hard time writing an opening topic.)

I could have sworn abortion popped up before on a thread.

Anyhow, I'm lazy so I'll make this short: pro-choice. A woman has the right to her own body. It's hers, and as far as I'm concerned: until that bunch of cells are outside the woman's body, it's her right to abort it.

George Carlin speaks the truth better! Warning: mature language. XD

"How come if it's us, it's abortion. But if it's a chicken, it's an omelet?"

"Consistency. Consistency."

concerning sanctity of life George Carlin again(language again)

My opinion in this is, like many things, complicated. I'm pro-choice even though I'm pro-life. There are some cases where I believe a parent might be completely justified- for instance... if they know the child is going to be born with severe handicaps... ones that could cause them to live a life of pain... or if the mother has an STD...
But I think abortion should be made harder to achieve... too many people just go to it because they were irresponsible or the condom/pill failed.

((@ KTC because with a chicken the eggs are not fertilized. It's an invalid comparison.))

I am totally against abortion personally, but I believe everyone is responsible for their own choices and would never deny them that right. Whether they choose to kill or not is between them and their conscience.

Im pro-choice. a woman should have the right to choose what to have control over her fertility and the right to terminate a pregnancy. Whether you would do it yourself or not is irrelevant, the choice is up to individual. to make it illegal to have the choice to have an abortion is the same as forcing an abortion on someone who doesn't want it, simply in reverse.

A fertilized egg is part of the woman's body, therefore, she should have complete control and the ability to make her own descisions about it. and further more, a fertilized egg is just a cell, like any other, until it develops.

the government should not be able to dictate whether a woman may have or not have an abortion, due to the simple fact that only 14% of the government is female.

@oracle: It's from the george carlin clips

A more appropriate analog would be bacteria, or your own cells: no one cries over them once their gone/neutralized. I wouldn't be sad if it was tumor/cancerous cells, and I sure as heck don't feel guilty taking antibiotics. Actually, I don't feel guilty about eating meat or plants either. *shrugs*

*prepares to 'offend' a lot of people cuz I already offend some people simply for existing *

The main issue I have with prolife people is that they tend to ignore the woman in the situation. It's always the "baby this, baby that". What about the woman who's body is gonna get taken over by a parasite for nine long months?

Oh it's nice to definitely just ignore her because she was stupid enough to get pregnant in the first place. Well don't we all feel self righteous? Regardless about how she got pregnant, one should worry about the immediate aftereffects which is a growing bundle of parasitic cells that may/may not ultimately kill her in the end.

And even if she was able to carry to full term, there's no guarantee that she'll be able to take care of it so economically, both suffer greatly.

I'm tired (and slightly depressed) right now and I don't feel like censoring my language anymore. SO I'll let someone else do the talking before I end up saying something really nasty.

Clicky or not.

George Carlin is the man btw. Check out his stuff though be warned: He criticizes everyone rofl! XD

@marian: about condom/pill failed, I don't think any responsible couple should be restricted from having abortion. Accidents happen no matter what those little boxes with 99.99% say.

i'm against abortion. it is against my morals.

here are a couple of aborted baby pix... WARNING: it can make you feel sick...

http://images.google.com.ph/imgres?im ... a:en-US:official%26sa%3DG

i don't understand how people could do this... they're not like bacteria, they are human. saying it's ok to kill babies is like saying it's ok to kill humans like pigs or rats...

@abby: mere scare tactics. If i bothered enough, i can find plenty of disgusting photos to prove my case by manipulating your emotions. But I don't because that's 'cheating' imo.

Against animal abuse? Show a bunch of abused animals. Particularly a slaughterhouse. Those things are quite bloody.
Against anime? SHOW HENTAI.
Against porn? SHOW DEMEANING PORN such as scat
Against ____ people group? Show pictures of them as barbarians or whatever. A favorite war tactic.

*yawns at scare tactic and sleeps*

i'm not trying to scare... i just want people to see that they are humans and they don't deserve to be treated like that. i'd rather go for adoption.

@abby: yes it is a scare tactic. Those pictures are for scaring/shocking/enraging a person to choose THERE side. See? You're using them to 'see that they are human'

It's manipulating emotions because as a picture is worth a thousand words.

I shall point to my war example:
Depict a certain group as less than human, and you can convince people that they are less than human therefore it's acceptable to treat them badly.

For example, the japs saw chinese as less than human due to propaganda and such. So what they do? Well since the chinese were less than human, it's raping/pincushion time. (rape of nanking).

No, it's a scare tactic or at the very least: propaganda for prolife. One I do not appreciate in the slightest.

it's a fact that they are humans. humans can't bear piglets, or puppies, or joeys so a fetus is human... the result of abortion looks disgusting... the act is disgusting... and the intention of doing it is disgusting...

i respect your opinion... i don't intend to change your point of view. i'm just making my own point here

@abby: those pictures are 'preaching to the prolife' so I'm not surprised you would use them though I'm a bit saddened one would use such a low blow tactic to 'prove' their point.

And I will point to my 2nd-3rd paragraphs concerning many pro-life's obsession with ignoring the woman in question who has to have this thing grow in her for 9 months.

as i said it's my opinion. and it is reality. if other people doesn't care about it, i respect it. i guess in a way i'm preaching for prolife...

humans are given free-will on what to do to their body. abortion, suicide... etc. but for me, i am against it and i will stand by my point.

well, since you put up shock photos. I put up a counter case for a more balanced view:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Abortion-P ... e-338/abortion-photos.htm

http://www.lifeandlibertyforwomen.org/truth_about_photos.html

Any picture can be easily manipulated into something it isn't. I have enough experience of just cutting/pasting to know it's fairly easy to make something ugly or good. I've seen people's manips where they photoshop a person's head onto another's body and it looked so dang real to the untrained eyes, almost seamless.

Example of expert photoshopping

Please look at any pictures anywhere (and I mean anywhere) with a grain of salt.

There is a short time in which the fetus has not yet developed a heart or a brain... I do not see it as living until there is a heartbeat. So, to me, aborting before the heart is developed is just a wasteful version of taking eggs out of the hen house- those eggs are eaten... this one is just disposed of.

Basset, I think the reason that this topic seems taboo in your school is that someone who is pro-choice can rarely persuade someone who is pro-life to change their mind and vice versa.

That said, I'm strongly pro-choice and pretty much agree with everything Nick said in his post. For myself, I have no moral problem with aborting in the first trimester--the embryo is so little developed at that point--or even into the second trimester if there were medical complications.

I can tell you from experience that it is emotionally and physically wrenching to terminate a pregnancy, as I had to do when I was sixteen (a long time ago), and while I suppose there are some women who can do so callously, I believe most women who go through an abortion never forget the grief of it. Even now if makes me cry to remember it.

Thank goodness I had the choice, though.

Everyone has a right to bring their decisions in life, so if a woman (or girl) feels it is ok to make an abortion and think that it is the only solution to her problem then that's ok with me, cause it's her own life.

I once assisted the doctor while he was making an abortion (I was 4th year in High School). I've seen pretty ugly things connected with medicine, but that was the only time when I got pale, and would go uncontentious if the doctor haven't noticed that I couldn't stand the feeling of helping him do that ugly thing.

I really felt like a murderer that moment.

So yeah I'm against it, if there isn't any medical reason for aborting the child (yes some of you might say that it is not a child, but it is).

@nightingale I'm sorry to hear that something like that have happened to you I have a friend that had no option as well (at least she thought she didn't had) and she had to make that decision. I've supported her, because I'm her friend and friends should stick together, but I haven't changed my opinion for abortion. She still feels terrible about it and wishes she could turn back time, but she couldn't.

Lets not forget that abortion has many consequences as well, that are pretty much dangerous for the girl/woman.

@moon: *skips over fetus part cuz that's ideology talking and I'll just end up repeating myself*

Abortion, if done and followed up correctly should not affect the woman (much like removing wisdom teeth. you need to follow the 'after surgery' instructions or suffer infection as my dad did.). But better to have a trained professional than having the woman try to do it herself. where the infamous 'coat hanger' stories start to thrive.

While rummaging around the net, I found this intriguing paper:

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

"Although few studies have been made of this phenomenon, a study done in 1981 (1) found that 24% of women who had abortions considered the procedure morally wrong, and 7% of women who'd had abortions disagreed with the statement, "Any woman who wants an abortion should be permitted to obtain it legally." A 1994/95 survey (2,3) of nearly 10,000 abortion patients showed 18% of women having abortions are born-again or Evangelical Christians. Many of these women are likely anti-choice. The survey also showed that Catholic women have an abortion rate 29% higher than Protestant women. A Planned Parenthood handbook on abortion notes that nearly half of all abortions are for women who describe themselves as born-again Christian, Evangelical Christian, or Catholic. (4)"

Intriguing. Any thoughts from the prolife side since I can't really see why a prolife person would have abortion. I'm not trying to be 'their side vs our side' but seriously, if one is so against abortion: why would they have it?

When abortion is even considered, it shows that the mother is already under a lot of stress. What is the future of the embryo growing inside her? Adoption? Because let's face it, not all adoption and/or foster cases end well, and orphanages are crowdy and usually underfunded, unlike nursery schools. The child might even come to resent his or her birth. While it's also true that there are exceptional cases whose unlucky births became their strengths, but what about those who end up broken by the hand dealt to them by their mothers? This might change them gradually into criminals because they might feel that it's the only way to survive in the world they were born in. And the upshot of this creates problems in society.

Hi all
>_> <_<
Good that I can actually still see members I can recognize around here.

A decision whether to have or not to have an abortion is no one elses buiseness but the woman's. No one else has the right to dictate her how she should decide.
And even if the woman's reason is something that I wouldn't consider a sufficient reason to have an abortion (e.g. not wanting to quit/interrupt job), I still recognize her right to consider and decide for herself.

I was shocked when I got to know in how many countries there is no opportunity for a [relatively] safe, professional abortion. It's just wrong if in a situation of an unwanted pregnancy a woman/girl is forced to one of these options (like it still is in some countries): a) a) maintain the unwanted pregnancy even if it's devastating her psychically (and physically) b) seek for amateur and possibly dangerous methodes to get rid of it c) try to find a doctor in another country if she has enough money for it d) kill herself (what I beleive in the most extreme situations can occur).

In the places where legal abortions don't exist, I don't understand that noone is trying to do anything about it... A fetus is more important than a fully developed thinking and feeling personality and her right to protect her body?

If we lived in some perfect world where no unwanted pregnancies happen, no health risks with pregnancy and birth happen, no genetic deffects happen, no rape happens, birth control never fails and all fetuses are wanted, then abortions weren't needed, but this is not the reality and pretending that it is will not make it so.

Here where abortions are legal (however, quite expensive, with which I disagree) some militant pro lifers exist and I pretty much hate them and their illogical arguments and hypocrysy... and how I "love" their suggestions of adoption as a solution to everything. 1. It's only a solution to unwanted parenting, not to unwanted pregnancy and birth. 2. Who will take care for the kids who end up in the childrens' homes? I demand that every one or these anti choice protesters adopts at least one child from a childrens' home, if according to them it's a solution. But no, they (a lot of them) won't because once it's out of a person's womb it's not their problem any more... they care goes just to fetuses but not to what happens with them after birth.

[Edit - ad gore pictures, I haven't looked at those that Abby posted, and I'm not so educaded in phases of embryonal development and stuff so much to recognize it, but I've heard/read that a lot of such pictures [on anti-choice sites and such] are actually fake and not representing what they claim to be representing.]