In the Philippines, there is a certain bill which is somehow pending or should I say left "hanging" for hearing. The catholic church is absolutely against this and is currently having a siggie or signature campaign at the EDSA Shrine. Let us say you are a Filipino citizen. Will you support, or go against the Reproductive Health Bill?


To see the Bill, click HERE!

A related topic or thread in Village Square:
http://www.amaranthia.com/modules/new ... php?topic_id=4579&forum=5

It's sad to see that the Catholic church has such a presence in law making.

Yes, i would definitely support this bill, reproductive health and gender equality is important, as is access to information on sexuality and reproductive health.

Nick: why is that sad?

Because any time religion mixes into politics it is never a good thing.

Ditto: religion should never mix.

Obvious bad way religion got involved: Crusades. Pope Urban II I think.

And the way the pope had so much power over the european kings. Too much power=far too much possible corruption.

I support the bill. its context is still very Filipino. it's about time people be responsible about parenthood.

So because religious people get involved in politics it's a bad thing? This isn't the pope coming down to the Phillipines to bring the wrath of the Vatican upon them. Enough Phillipino citizens such that their collective voices can be heard who happen to affiliate with the Catholic church just don't want the government sticking it's nose into what they consider a private matter.

Should people with guns get involved in politics? Should they be excluded?

What about Politicians? Everyone says you can't trust them with anything, why would one let them get involved in government yet exclude others?

Teds: { Name one person who was involved in the Catholic church when the crusades were going on or during the medieval ages who is still part of the Church? for that matter, name one who's still alive.
If you're saying that because of their affiliation with a group that did that centuries ago, let's go imprison everyone who lives south of Missouri for their mistreatment of Black people.
And while we're at it, kick all politicians out of government because of Watergate.}

and my initial question wasn't answered: Why is church involvement in politics a bad thing? Just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it true.

Ryuzaki

Religion is different than others. Religion shouldn't get involved to politics because they tend to discriminate against anyone who isn't with that religion. Then the religious person usually will completely ignore anything that doesn't coincide with their beliefs, which means nothing will get done. Church involvement is bad because it leads to discrimination against others.

@ryu: from what heimdall said
"The catholic church is absolutely against this and is currently having a siggie or signature campaign at the EDSA Shrine."

^ Catholic church. I'm going to assume it's roman catholic church. Meaning they will influence a bunch of would be religious voters who probably believe anything/most that church saids.

A person should make an informed vote, not a vote based on what the church, priest, bishop, family, politician, etc. saids. Unfortunately: keeping out religious aspects of one's beliefs to objectively look at something is much harder said than done.

It's much easier, imo, to zone out what politicians/family/etc. say than religious beliefs, purely because religious beliefs sound like a 'word from god'. And that big dude in the sky hates being ignored or blatantly denied according to your local priest/bishop/etc.

Most politicians are opportunity hunters to begin with. I don't trust a majority of what they say lol.

As for people with guns: if they threaten you with those guns to force you to vote: they should be restrained. Sure they can vote, but they shouldn't force people to vote at gunpoint.

crusades: i'm merely providing an example when religion was used as an excuse for political movement and why religion+politics=bad mix It's one of the most blatant examples or religious abuse. One could also look at 9/11 and the terrorists who believed they were working under Allah when they smashed those planes into the World Trade Center. And I could probably draw up a whole lot of other bloody exanples in history where religious excuse played a key role.

People have always used religion as an excuse to kill, start wars, etc. It's best to stop this excuse at the root by complete separation of church and state.

Nutshell-With religious reasons/influences out of the way: One has to look at their prejudices/racism/sexism/problems without an all encompassing crutch to lean on.

Yeah though I agree with you the church is meddling with politics but I am still searching for the CBCP Statement regarding this matter.

@Mopiece: What kind of discrimination? Can you give an example?

@Ryuzaki: Its not the vatican imo, it must be just the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines.

btw, did anyone read the bill (the long bill) before posting?

Puritans had to leave England because The king didn't like them. The Spanish Inquisition, the catholic church torched pretty much everyone who wasn't Catholic. History has shown numerous times that it isn't good to have religion and politics to intermix.

I never said Church affiliation or attendance. I said the Church meaning whoever runs it. If said person ever mixes with politics, the end result is not good.

BAH You deleted your post.

@heimdall: I skimmed it and agreed with most of what I read. I'm not not seeing why it should be denied (yet).

Discrimination: easy. (A LOT OF GENERALIZATION HERE)
Catholics don't like protestants. Protestants don't like baptists. Muslims don't like Jews. All of those don't like atheists. XD NOW, if you were in power to actually promote those dislikes: you'd have something similar to the middle east situation with shiites vs shunnis vs other muslim group vs jews. (Again, blatant example. I'm sure there are more 'subtle' examples)

mopiece 1 {now you're profiling.
Church affiliation or attendance doesn't correlate with discrimination.

One thing that does correlate with discrimination, however, is membership of any group.
(I'll post the source for this as soon as i find the names of the scientists)}

Teds: { So you're saying all muslims are evil because of 9/11? ... might wanna reconsider that argument. =P
Also, people don't only look at religion for those types of guidelines. Political party affiliation, GSA membership, NRA membership, apparent similarity to previous votes, what other people say they'll vote are used just as much, if not more. }

Mopiece 2, as well as others who've quoted the separation of church & state doctorine.: { I'm not talking about religious groups here btw. I'm talking about people who have religious beliefs. . . and if you're saying keep everyone out of govt. that believes in god. . . isn't that discrimination in itself?}

Heimdall: {I just now read it. It mainly confused me. I'll have to re-read it. b/c right now, I don't even understand why catholics would oppose this. I mean it's talking about educating kids to wait 'till marriage for sex}


[EDITS]: Mopiece: it's back. I was just adding more stuff b/c ppl had posted. =P
anyway, why should church leaders be excluded? They're people too, that have their own opinions.


Heimdall: btw, what's the catholic bishops conference?

Teds: see what I said to mopiece 1

[END EDITS]

I'm not talking about individual people with religious beliefs. I am talking about the CHURCH itself. I'm not saying keep everyone who believes in god or whoever they believe out of government, I am saying keep CHURCH out of government, ie don't even take the Catholic Church objections into consideration since they should have nothing to do with government. Church leaders should be excluded because they're going to be more likely to discriminate. If something goes against what they believe they are more than likely to not let it get passed.

and KTC Never said that all Muslims are evil. He just gave examples of specific religious groups that do not like each other.

ryuzaki:

CBCP or otherwise known as the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Philippines...WATCH THIS video.

How do you get the church into government in the first place? and what makes you think church leaders are more likely to discriminate than anyone? I'm a psych student; there is research that's been mentioned in every one of my psychology classes that says it's not restricted to any specific group. just being a member of a group breeds discrimination. in other words, might as well keep out all black people, white people, hispanic people, people I didn't mention, people who are members of GSA, people who oppose GSA, etc. etc. etc. because they're ALL more likely to discriminate.


Teds did mention 9/11 as an example why religion is bad. no, she didn't limit it to muslims. she said all religions are bad because of 9/11

quote:
"One could also look at 9/11 and the terrorists who believed they were working under Allah when they smashed those planes into the World Trade Center."

@ryu: That's why i said terrorist, not muslims Those people used religion as an excuse to kill all those people. They believed they were doing god's work. That's highly delusional and probably won't get past any secular court system.

Last time I checked, you weren't force into a political group/association. So if you joined, it's because you believe in them or think that group is right. In other words, you chose to join them. (If you're forced into it, it's the same thing with what I said about peoples with guns: they should be restrained)

Religion: Most likely one will be baptized/or whatever you do and indoctrinated into the religion at an early age. More so if the majority of said population is highly religious. So, you would have been influenced by religion at a very early age meaning to think objectively without religious influences is near impossible. Likewise, you will look up to whoever is the current religious leader(s) of your religion.

There's nothing wrong with people having religious beliefs. What's wrong is when people abuse those beliefs by using them as excuses to harm or influence them greatly.

"Why did you kill that person?"
"Cuz god told me to."

"What's wrong with baptists/muslims/hindus?"
"They're not part of my religion and therefore are heathens. They should be killed or forced to see the light. It's in my holy book ____ "

PS: It's hilarious to see two genders assigned to me on the same page right after one another XD

What do you mean how do you get church into government? They get there way in. And yes any groups will discriminate against each other, but CHURCHES are more likely too because they want to push their beliefs onto people. History shows religion should not mix with politics.

And yes I saw after I posted that he mentioned 9/11 which is why I edited my post. But he never said all Muslims are bad. Nor did he say that all religion is bad because of 9/11. He was giving examples that prove why religion shouldn't mix with politics.

You used that argument as an example why religion is bad. Have you seen the south park episodes where cartman goes 50 years into the future btw?

Religion: so? thinking objectively without your parents' influence is also near impossible, because of the same reasons. does that mean everyone who has parents shouldn't vote?

Besides, you're using very specific examples of a clear minority to describe the entire group. Should watergate be used as a reason why the democratic party is bad? No.

You're also not forced to join or stay with a religion (except maybe some very obscure cults but those aren't really relevant to the larger discussion). you stay with them because of your beliefs.

Mo: oops didn't see the edit.
I mean, how do churches get into government, not church members. Church members are simply people who have opinions. O my gosh so is every other person in govt. what ever shall we do? =P
also, w/ churches being more likely, do you have any sort of tangible evidence? sources? anything? =P


re: Catholic Bishops organization. looks like they're a lobbyist group. just like NRA, etc.