As I said earlier The Spanish Inquisition and when all of Europe had kings, the Pope pretty much had all control over them. Churches get involved into government by forcing their way in and telling politicians they don't like/believe in the new policy.

Martin Luther King was a church leader. He was the major leader for the racial equality revolution (or w/e it was called. it slipped my mind it seems) He led from the pulpit. ... yeah, I guess his church discriminated against everyone too. . . >>


still no evidence.
just a ton of fundamental attribution error.

@ryu: Why are you bringing in South park?

As for parents: yes you're influenced by them, but that doesn't mean you can generally use them as an excuse to do horrible acts. Religion on the other hand has been and still is used as an excuse. *points to middle east*

I don't get why you're bringing up watergate/political groups: Supporting a political group is a decision you made based on what you believe in. It's not forced on you.

Religion: you stay because you've been influenced all your life that this religion is right and good, so why leave? Sure you can leave: but I bet most religious people would look at me very crazily to even suggest leaving their particular branch of religion. I'm hesitant to say total brainwash though because that will get me killed.

@ryu: you might like to watch This as he explains it better than me. I don't agree with his standing that religion is pure evil, but his examples applies to this.

MLK wasn't a leader in government, he was just a political activist and he didn't use a religion as an excuse for his activities.

And no evidence? that's right it was just individual Catholics who prosecuted protestants/jews/anyone else who wasn't Catholic in the Spanish Inquisition. Nope wasn't the Church itself telling people to do that.

Well, in that episode, religion was gone. there were 3 organizations of atheists in a bloody war with each other over the answer to "the fundamental question"

Parents have been used as an excuse. *Points to courts & rapist cases where an abusive childhood was used to explain the why of it*
neither example has let it's user get away w/ it. therefore, neither can be used. or both can be sued because both have.

I still don't see how religion is forced on you.
I'm bringing up watergate to show how absurd your examples are.


also, Mo: how did the church force it's way into phillipino govt?

Mo: It's no evidence that other groups aren't as likely to be violent & discriminatory. KKK wasn't a church.

MLK wasn't a leader in govt. but he sure played a big role in what they did. 'sides, the point of that was to show that religion, in this case, led to good things coming out of government. & good things in general.


---
GAH. it's not fundamental attribution error i was talking about. oops.

Easy, at young age parents bring you to church, you get baptized and continue to go to church and believe in whatever your religion is about. You don't choose to get baptized, your parents do.

Philippines was originally a spanish colony, meaning the religion was Catholic. So naturally the Catholic Church expresses its opinions on what the government does. And the government apparently never did anything to stop the church.

And like KTC why are you bringing up political groups? They have nothing to do with religious groups. People voluntarily join political groups. Yes MLK did good, with the help of others but he didn't use religion as a pretext as to why blacks should have equal rights.

I still don't see how you're forced. You're encouraged by your parents, but is that forcing?

QUOTE:
"So naturally the Catholic Church expresses its opinions on what the government does."

So Expression of opinion is a bad thing?

How do you not see how kids are forced? Babies don't decide that they want to go to church, their parents MAKE them go to church.

Expression of opinion isn't a bad thing, but when a Church expresses its opinion over a government action it is, because it's using its beliefs in saying why it is bad. And not everyone believes in their religion, so they shouldn't meddle with politics.

Its not a bad thing for me since everybody has rights.

No I don't see how parents make people who are of voting age go to church. remember, we're talking about people who vote. and you know what? I bet your parents took you to clubs/school/meetings that matched their beliefs too. so you can't isolate one group based on what everyone else does as well.

why is expression of opinion over what the government does bad? Isn't that what MLK did? Isn't that what the feminist movement advocates did? Isn't that what you do every time you talk about why mccain should be elected rather than obama or visa versa?



EDIT:
also, How does that influence your beliefs if the only reason yuo're there is b/c someone made you. if that's your only reason, you're not paying attention to what's being said, much less agreeing with it.

parents: that's why I said generally. Parent excuse don't get away with it generally. Religion? *points to middle east again* It's still used and people get away with it

Religion forced on you: Check a particular area with one religion: omg, most of the people are that religion. point to another, and again: most of those people are for one religion. If you've been born/growing up learning there's god(s): you will most likely believe it.

Sides, do babies ask to get baptized? I don't think so. Before you can even make an decision you're thrust into a religion, whether you really want to or not.

Parents take their kids when they're born to church and they keep taking them to church. And by the time kids get to voting age they usually don't go away from the church. My parents never forced me to go to any meeting/club I didn't want to go to.

I NEVER said expression of opinion is bad. I said that when CHURCHES express their opinion is bad. MLK, feminist movements didn't use RELIGION as their excuse.

How are they getting away with it? Seems they're being hunted quite a bit, aren't they?

wait, you're saying look at that area where most people are catholic. I guess most of them must be catholic.
... DUH. but that doesn't prove anything. or even say anything. =P

I guess most people in your area are atheist then. hmmmmm.


reposting what I edited in earlier b/c i guess you didn't see it:
also, How does that influence your beliefs if the only reason yuo're there is b/c someone made you. if that's your only reason, you're not paying attention to what's being said, much less agreeing with it.


Mo: and since the beginning of this, I've been asking, why is it bad when Churches do what everyone else has the right to do?
key word: why?

& they keep going b/c they believe in it. so they shouldn't be allowed to participate in govt. b/c their beliefs don't match yours?

Because they use their religious beliefs when they express their opinions. And not everyone belongs to that religion. And religion has no place in government.

everyone expresses their beliefs, even if not everyone believes that. that's how our govt. tries to get the most neutral opinion. Just b/c their beliefs match a religion's beliefs that's suddenly bad?

Religions are just groups of people who happen to believe in the same things. ... still not a reason

Ryuzaki: Its Filipino Government, not Philippino. Just saying.

For 500 years the spanish ruled Philippines using the sword and the cross. Expect many religious filipinos to disagree with the bill itself. Like the CBCP video I just posted, they will not allow a SINGLE shed of blood to happen because of you know what....

why is it bad when Churches do what everyone else has the right to do?

Allow me. Huh? Wait. Its not bad since everyone and I mean EVERY-ONE has rights. They express their opinions and etc. through rallies. Have you heard of People Power Revolution?

Churches shouldn't express their opinion in government because they are to share their beliefs to their religious followers not for politics. Religious people can express their opinions can express their opinions no matter what. But the Church shouldn't give an official opinion because they have no business in politics.

....but some like Bro. Ed Panlilio went into politics and ran as governor of Pampanga.

Well, if someone doesn't like the official position of their church, they don't have to be a member. they don't have to vote that way.
Everyone has business in politics, because it directly affects everyone.

'sides, the official opinion of the church is exactly what MLK's anti-racism thing was. Simply the opinion of the pastor or of the members.


or is it bad that someone whom people trust has an opinion and doesn't keep it to themself?

They are obviously getting away with it, because if they didn't someone would have already slapped them with reason for making such a big deal about religious differences. lol. I mean, a bunch of jews got all hot and bothered (and pulled out the guns) when a muslim politician tried to go into 'their' dome on the rock(I think that's the right one) as a peace offering of sorts in 2000. O_o!

"You're a muslim! You don't look like a Jew! Get out!" *shoots*

check out the vid link for more examples of religion being used as an excuse

Actually: I went to a catholic school so I was a pretty religious kid until 3rd grade. believed in god, prayed before bed, eating, the whole works. Only thing I didn't get done was getting baptized. My parents weren't religious, so they just looked at my religiousness as an amusing quirk and let it be by neither encouraging or discouraging. Just ~3 years of mass and religious prayers pretty much 'brainwashed' me to be religious until I 'snapped out' of it. Now, I 'snapped' out of it because it was only 3 years and I wasn't in any religious community nor did my parents were actively religious. BUT, if I had a religious community to reinforce this belief + getting more than 3 years of religious influence: I'd be believing in god right now. That's why I bring up community: if you're bombarded with it since you were born and get constant sources of bombardment: you're most likely going to be religious. Religious communities just reinforce their members beliefs so that majority will be religious.

I'd use my sister as an another example. She went to a catholic school and was pretty religious. BUT, since I (atheist now) was around picking at her religious beliefs and has a far greater influence on her than the school + no religious communities to condemn my blasphemies: she pretty much 'converted' to a form of atheism hahaha. *burns in non existent hell*

Get what I mean?