(shrugs) What I was mainly saying was that IF you choose to go the charm-them-with-gifts attaction points route, it might be nice if the girl was the one doing the charming for once.

And oh YEAH, Te'ijal and Galahad are AWESOME. Course, like I think I said earlier in this thread, they have the humorous back-and-forth interaction that tends to be absent in most main pairings (well, Mel and Edward had some of that, but then all of a sudden Stella/Edward came out of left field . . .).

@shaz: About the timer, that was in response to Ivanna saying that the whole "Oh let's go get married. I'm sure big bad would sit around and wait while we go off do pointless things" situation is unrealistic. If putting in an actual time restraint (e.g you have to do X within an hour of receiving said quest, and something bad will happen if you fail it) is not possible, then a logical event to indicate how much time has passed would be good.
Let's use AV1 as an example. If you've rescued three druids, you will find soldiers running around Sedona and buildings on fire and people screaming that they've been attacked. And hopefully it's logical. Like... Eddie and Stella solving the Katie issue in JUST A FEW HOURS? WHUT HOW?

Re side pairing: Well, they don't interact all that much, but every single bit of interaction is very... strong and full of character, to say the least. Dameon showering Rhen with fanciful compliments is not meaningful. It's your run-of-the-mill cliche flirting attempt.
Te/Gal and Elini/John are not meant to be taken too seriously, and is all for the lulz, which made them entertaining. Also, while the two pairs have pretty much the same interaction like this...
Woman: I want you
Man: Do not want!
Woman: Wants!
Man: No!
Woman: I get want I want anyway!
Man: NOOOOOOOOO!

... there's enough personality showing to make Elini and Te'ijal's approach seem different enough. Maybe it's just how the wording are done, but they feel different.

Re Ed/Mel: From the beginning I find Edward obnoxious because he keeps on following Mel even though she tells him to go away. LISTEN TO THE GIRL AND RESPECT HER DECISION DANGIT. He's imposing his opinion and way of thinking on Mel because he thinks it'll be for the better. It doesn't matter if Mel ends up agreeing with Eddie. He's still being intrusive. It wasn't funny when it happened to me, and it sure as heck not fun to see it happen to someone else on screen. That was why I was partial to Spook/Mel back when I was adamant on separating Gyendal and Spook. Spook was always saying that Mel can decide for herself what she wants and nobody should make decisions for her. Those are probably empty words and it's a masquerade, but STILL. The fact remains that in Gyendal's opinion the best way to woo Mel is by letting her make her own decisions. The freaking bad guy knows how to treat girls with respect better than the hero! That is so wrong!

And I am totally convinced that Galahad has Stockholm Syndrome. This is what he said in Harburg: "As much as she talks about eating humans, I've never seen her do it. Perhaps Te'ijal is not as wicked as I thought. I need to save my wife!" Just because he doesn't see it, doesn't mean she wasn't doing it. Considering how he's always running away from her, what does he know of what Te'ijal is or isn't doing when he wasn't looking? She might well be just being considerate enough to not eat in front of him. I know this is probably not what Amanda intended, and maybe she just meant that Galahad is a bit naive or whatever, but this is what it came off sounding like to me. Aveyond 3 just got a lot darker, yay!

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Sure, there's not much interaction between the side pairings as well (since Aveyond lacks interaction, period)- but the one you write is much better than the interactions between the main pairing, which usually goes like this:

Guy: Hey, here's a gift for you
Girl: Oh, thanks I like it

And if we compare the pairings in AV2, it's even worse. Ean and Iya are sort of the beta couple since they are already really close when the game starts. As for the other two (Emma/Rye and Gavin/Ava)... their chemistry is much clearer, to say the least.

Re Edward: I dislike him as well, now that I think about it. He's always imposing, wants everything to go his way, and believes he's always right. He forces himself to tag along Mel and Stella, then simply walks away when he believes their quest don't make sense, and then comes back again and expect to be welcomed with open arms. The heck??? He's even worse than Lars (while he was still being a jerk to Rhen) and Galahad (during his initial Holier-than-thou, Knight in shining armour attitude) combined.

@Rogue: My point exactly. The side pairings don't have much interaction, but what little they have is meaningful enough to cause great impact.

I don't see Emma/Rye chemistry myself, though. I see them interacting more like:
E: You suck
R: You suck more
Both: Trollololololol

Not exactly romantic chemistry, but more like "we do it for the lulz and because we can, so there".

Gavin/Ava is not the greatest romance, because it's like this:
G: I love you
A: I don't like you
(rinse and repeat)
A: You know, you're kinda sweet actually. Okay, I'll marry you.

It's just "persistence = result", but hey, it was pretty entertaining. The fact that Gavin went as far as offer up his eye for her is somewhat touching. Though it maybe because he's got addled up with lots of magic items that... his love is a deluded love. Still, I don't see why people think Ava agreeing to marry him is downgrading. It's Gavin who's puppy-tailing Ava everywhere and she's still the one with the leash.

Re Eddie: And as per TDP its just terrible. I wonder if Amanda is using that as a quick-fix to get the pairing to dissolve, because seriously... You do NOT offer up someone else's service without their consent! That is EVIL. A royal mage may be a good, high-ranking position, but that still doesn't make it right. Like, if I sold you to the Sultan of Brunei to become his secretary, you'll be getting millions of dollars salary every month, but fact remains that I sold you. It's not funny and it's not nice.

I totally disliked it when he just jumped into your group in LOT and refused to leave even when he's been told he's not wanted. And people are condoning it because he's a designated good guy. The one who was happy to have him was Stella. Mel didn't want him in. Same thing with the glowing twins. Uma and Nox are supposed to be obnoxious characters, but doesn't make it okay either. People are condoning it because they have deluded visions of "Uma and Nox are TEH AWESUM". And, well, it was sort of an emergency and Mel did need assistance. See if people have the same reaction had it been Gyendal who did it. Let's say, instead of just shoving Mel to the Demon Realm, he comes with her and insist on helping because he wants to spite Mordred and forcefully joins your party. I don't think anyone would be happy with this turn of events unless they're deluded fangirls like me.

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Ahahaha I srsly lol'd at it. xD

Is it me or is the side-pairings always more entertaining/likeable than the main ones? :s Not just romance, but it seems to apply in the characters too.

Eh, not really. That don't really apply in AV3. Ulf, Yvette, and June aren't any more interesting than Mel or Stella Though for being tertiary characters, Te-Gal totally beats Mel, Stella, and Eddie any day in "being interesting" department. Stella had the potential to be interesting, considering she had trauma from Gyendal's attack... But no, she dropped out of the issue in TLO (Sorry Mel, I don't wanna be involved in dangerous issues anymore even though Gyendal has broken loose and it's a BIG PROBLEM).

Wait, what are we talking about again? Right, pairings. Many threads has gone to weird directions lately. I can't keep track of what the topic is about sometimes.

I am in full support of Ed/Stella because they're both floppy people. Ed is bossy and Stella is happy about it. They go together so well... LIKE TWILIGHT

If Amanda is in full favour of "troll pairings", can the troll pairings at least make sense? It's not a good idea to lead players one direction and then Bam! reveal that the truth is something else entirely without at least scattering little hints about it. If the player can choose between different pairings, then give each pairing option equal amounts of MEANINGFUL interaction.

If she's THAT into troll pairings, the canon pair for Edward should be with Belf instead. You know, he was being such a priss in the journey that none of the girls wanted him that his parents actually HAD to marry him to Belf.

I personally supports this pairing more than any of the other main pairings in AV3.

And, hey, a guy persistently chasing after a girl who's not interested and finally wins her, or two people bickering and trolling each other over a bet, is way better than a pairing that just happens because a guy give gifts to a girl. And that actually shows more chemistry than a couple that happens through black mail or love potions, really.

I suddenly got a bout of nostalgia and remembered that back when I was 10 years old or something when I first played Aveyond, I shipped Dameon x Indra.

I have no idea why.

For real? Because the first time I play, I shipped Saurva/Eithera. Though since my love for Aveyond isn't that 'powerful', it's forgotten soon enough. Credits for that pair now belongs to d_a.

The first time I played, I had no idea what "shipping" was or anything but despite this I shipped Te'ijal/Galahad veeeery hard and wondered "why the heck do I like these two so much this is not normal". XD

~

I've already stated I prefer side pairings over main ones, but on the topic of the characters themselves, I also agree, but not just in Aveyond. Really anything, the main character would never be my favorite (same with my lurker friend, but I'm not sure about anyone else).

Eddie/Belf = win. I like it more than Ed/Stella. Still, at least I can finally say I agree with a MAIN CANON PAIRING for once. I usually go ship fan-pairings in most of the fandoms I care about.

I remember at some point in me and Rogue's crazy AV1 troll-shipping spree, Indra ended up with Lars or something I was, what, 13? 14?

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Why am I receiving credit? I didn't come up with it! We started liking it separately and then found out that we both actually agree on it.

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THIS. I think Gavin/Ava is a better couple than Te/Gal anytime because interaction happen. And... well, you could call it "development". Te'ijal and Galahad is crack to the most crack and crack for eternity, because if you don't think of it as crack, that pairing is freaking STOCKHOLM SYNDROME until Galahad finally flipped the circumstances in TDP (in a rather misogynistic manner too). It's terrible. That relationship would surely warrant a call to the police and a demand of restraining order were it set in this day and age. I don't understand the people who think it's deep and *shudder* romantic.

ETA: So. After watching Snow White and the Hunstman, I thought that movie made use of the whole "interactions that while small and few, but counts" thing that's been talked about for a few posts here.

Let's not talk about the acting, which I think was kinda forced and lame, but the events themselves. Not counting the whole "running around rescuing Snow White and escaping danger" thing, there's 4 interactions that stood out to me. SPOILER ALERT.

1) After reunited with her childhood friend William, William says sorry for not being there for her. Snow White says "hey, it's okay, you're here now", but takes Hunter's hand when she crosses the river
2) Dead obvious for those who watched the movie: Hunter's kiss was the one that woke her up, not William's
3) Hunter remarking "Hey, you aren't dead! Oh, and you look cute in chainmail " to Snow White when they're heading out to battle"
4) At the end, during coronation, Snow White looks at the crowd, sees Hunter, and smiles

Those are small interaction, but meaningful enough to matter. Had the acting weren't bad I would be all "Y they no get together??? BAW!" at the end But in Aveyond or any other RPGs there's no such thing as "bad acting", unless it's the later Final Fantasy that has super-fine animated cutscenes, so... That is not a big deal.

Agree with you there, d_a. That's why I kind of actually liked the Aveyond 2 pairings Rye/Emma and Ava/Gavin - because their attraction points actually warrant genuine interaction which is interesting and provides conversation and shows the relationship more.

Yeah, because as lame as most of AV2 is, that's the one time where attraction points went beyond the guy going "Here, this is a gift" and the girl "Oh thank you! *blush*". This is why Ean and Iya is boring, because that was precisely how THEIR interaction happened. Gavin/Ava and Rye/Emma had more going on in their points.

None of the AV2 pairings were real interesting to me. Ean/Iya was just boring. Emma/Rye was slightly amusing with their arguements, but it got pretty repetitive. It was like this over and over:

Winner of bet: Slave, I command you to do something humiliating.

Loser of bet: (grumbles and does it while complaining)

Both: (laugh)

Gavin/Ava was the closest thing the game had to an interesting pairing. Gavin always trying to seduce Ava and Ava seeing through it was okay. And the eye-offering thing was sweet, but I still didn't get "into" it that much.

I was being VERY generous with Emma/Rye. I mean, I thought their interaction were boring as heck too, but at least they're doing something. Unlike Te'ijal/Galahad and Elini/John who had NOTHING going on. It's just blackmail and love potion. They are funny and great fun for the lulz, but definitely not very interesting.

I was all for Te/Gal because it's lulz and it's great that the lady is the one in charge. I mean, someone had to take that chest-thumping holier-than-thou knight and knock some decency into him or so help me I would love to reach into the screen and smack the living hell out of him. Someone pushing HIM around for a change feels so great and wonderful. But there is no depth and nothing interesting other than the lulz. Even in AV3. That's just some kind of weird Stockholm Syndrome.

Pirate John and Elini is even more nonsense that don't really go anywhere, so... Blerp.

Well, derp.

Isn't the whole point of this thread is to discuss how romance/pairings in games (especially Aveyond) can be made more interesting, because the ones we've seen so far in the games AREN'T?

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Well, not really. I made no comment on whether romances in existing games were good or not. What I asked (though not in so many words) was what MAKES a good romance, in a game where romance is not the focus. I didn't really want this to become a nitpicking thread of every little thing that's wrong with pairings in existing games - Aveyond or others.

I'm after a balance of what makes a pair interesting, believable, romantic, when you can't devote a lot of time to relationship building because its a side aspect to the game, and spending a lot of time on it would detract from your main purpose.

My reason for asking, is that there are several romances in Dragons Among Us, and I want to try and develop them in a way that will keep the majority of people happy, without getting sidetracked from the more serious stuff in the game.

Well, you didn't say it, but the other posters did. And, to be frank, the execution of romance in Aveyond so far are epic fails. Not sure how the developing teams usually write up the plot, but there are very few interactions between the characters, and most of them aren't romance-related.

Romance-related events are limited to attraction points, and attraction points does not affect other interactions afterwards. That's what annoys most players, because the canon pairings hardly ever make sense.

Perhaps, but that's not the "whole point of the thread", as you claim.

I really don't have much of an issue with the attraction points, because I don't play the games with the purpose of having characters pair up. I also realize that there's a lot that's not said, giving players the opportunity to fill in the blanks - if we had to have every piece of interaction (which again is not the main focus of the game), then it'd be a movie, and not a game, and there'd be no room for imagination.

Well, some games managed to insert decent interactions even though the pairings are optional and not the main point of the game. I know it's going to be extra work to code all the crazy events and whatshiz, but... it's gonna be worthwhile for sure.

Book of Legends by Aldorlea, for example. I thought that game did the interaction and optional event/content thing well. And apparently Three The Hard Way too, according to Ivana. Can't vouch for it, not having played the game ever...

There's difference between "leaving room for imagination" and "leaving gaping holes/blank slates for people to fill in with whatever nonsense they feel like putting in"

I saw on some sites that Aveyond's main weakness is that the characters are flat and relies too much on cliches. To an extent, I agree. You have to twist yourself into knots and see way more than what lines/scenes/situations actually portray to actually get a rounded character. And having rounded characters is pretty important to any story.

Example: Te'ijal is vampire who loves being a vampire and thinks tormenting paladins is fun. She also has a soft spot for humans and considers blackmail and eternal torment romantic. Why does she have a soft spot for humans? I don't know! For the lulz maybe? Why does she like the sun so much that she missed it while other vamps don't care? I don't know! Why does she and Gyendal have different opinions on humans, other than because Te'ijal having travelled with Rhen and co and her having aforementioned soft spot for humans? I don't know! She's just there to be cool and awesome and hardcore and edgy and totally kick-butt. That is flat.

A complex game with character depth may be harder/more hassle to make and it's probably a gamble to put that much effort, but... worth a try maybe?