parents: that's why I said generally. Parent excuse don't get away with it generally. Religion? *points to middle east again* It's still used and people get away with it

Religion forced on you: Check a particular area with one religion: omg, most of the people are that religion. point to another, and again: most of those people are for one religion. If you've been born/growing up learning there's god(s): you will most likely believe it.

Sides, do babies ask to get baptized? I don't think so. Before you can even make an decision you're thrust into a religion, whether you really want to or not.

Parents take their kids when they're born to church and they keep taking them to church. And by the time kids get to voting age they usually don't go away from the church. My parents never forced me to go to any meeting/club I didn't want to go to.

I NEVER said expression of opinion is bad. I said that when CHURCHES express their opinion is bad. MLK, feminist movements didn't use RELIGION as their excuse.

How are they getting away with it? Seems they're being hunted quite a bit, aren't they?

wait, you're saying look at that area where most people are catholic. I guess most of them must be catholic.
... DUH. but that doesn't prove anything. or even say anything. =P

I guess most people in your area are atheist then. hmmmmm.


reposting what I edited in earlier b/c i guess you didn't see it:
also, How does that influence your beliefs if the only reason yuo're there is b/c someone made you. if that's your only reason, you're not paying attention to what's being said, much less agreeing with it.


Mo: and since the beginning of this, I've been asking, why is it bad when Churches do what everyone else has the right to do?
key word: why?

& they keep going b/c they believe in it. so they shouldn't be allowed to participate in govt. b/c their beliefs don't match yours?

Because they use their religious beliefs when they express their opinions. And not everyone belongs to that religion. And religion has no place in government.

everyone expresses their beliefs, even if not everyone believes that. that's how our govt. tries to get the most neutral opinion. Just b/c their beliefs match a religion's beliefs that's suddenly bad?

Religions are just groups of people who happen to believe in the same things. ... still not a reason

Ryuzaki: Its Filipino Government, not Philippino. Just saying.

For 500 years the spanish ruled Philippines using the sword and the cross. Expect many religious filipinos to disagree with the bill itself. Like the CBCP video I just posted, they will not allow a SINGLE shed of blood to happen because of you know what....

why is it bad when Churches do what everyone else has the right to do?

Allow me. Huh? Wait. Its not bad since everyone and I mean EVERY-ONE has rights. They express their opinions and etc. through rallies. Have you heard of People Power Revolution?

Churches shouldn't express their opinion in government because they are to share their beliefs to their religious followers not for politics. Religious people can express their opinions can express their opinions no matter what. But the Church shouldn't give an official opinion because they have no business in politics.

....but some like Bro. Ed Panlilio went into politics and ran as governor of Pampanga.

Well, if someone doesn't like the official position of their church, they don't have to be a member. they don't have to vote that way.
Everyone has business in politics, because it directly affects everyone.

'sides, the official opinion of the church is exactly what MLK's anti-racism thing was. Simply the opinion of the pastor or of the members.


or is it bad that someone whom people trust has an opinion and doesn't keep it to themself?

They are obviously getting away with it, because if they didn't someone would have already slapped them with reason for making such a big deal about religious differences. lol. I mean, a bunch of jews got all hot and bothered (and pulled out the guns) when a muslim politician tried to go into 'their' dome on the rock(I think that's the right one) as a peace offering of sorts in 2000. O_o!

"You're a muslim! You don't look like a Jew! Get out!" *shoots*

check out the vid link for more examples of religion being used as an excuse

Actually: I went to a catholic school so I was a pretty religious kid until 3rd grade. believed in god, prayed before bed, eating, the whole works. Only thing I didn't get done was getting baptized. My parents weren't religious, so they just looked at my religiousness as an amusing quirk and let it be by neither encouraging or discouraging. Just ~3 years of mass and religious prayers pretty much 'brainwashed' me to be religious until I 'snapped out' of it. Now, I 'snapped' out of it because it was only 3 years and I wasn't in any religious community nor did my parents were actively religious. BUT, if I had a religious community to reinforce this belief + getting more than 3 years of religious influence: I'd be believing in god right now. That's why I bring up community: if you're bombarded with it since you were born and get constant sources of bombardment: you're most likely going to be religious. Religious communities just reinforce their members beliefs so that majority will be religious.

I'd use my sister as an another example. She went to a catholic school and was pretty religious. BUT, since I (atheist now) was around picking at her religious beliefs and has a far greater influence on her than the school + no religious communities to condemn my blasphemies: she pretty much 'converted' to a form of atheism hahaha. *burns in non existent hell*

Get what I mean?

My point is, they can't justify it w/ religion, they simply use it as an excuse b/c they don't have anything better. (b/c there is no excuse. but that doesn't make religion bad. If not for religion, there'd be some other excuse. (like, Hitler told me to))

teds: yeah. you bring up an excellent point: Church isn't the only thing that influences kids or shapes their beliefs, even if they are actively religious when young. You chose different influences for yourself, just as anyone has the choice of who gets to influence him or her.

Churches don't have any business in politics. They aren't there to provide for everyone. They are there to provide for their followers. It's not bad when people trust the opinion of someone else. The church however should stay neutral because there is no reason for them to get involved in politics.

Now your argument is getting better. XD

but the only ways church is able to get involved in government are 2: 1, ask people to vote a certain way, which they still have the right to choose.
2, lobby government representatives, which many other organizations do as well, and nobody is saying they are bad for doing that.

so my question is, again: why is it bad for the church to get involved in either of those ways, b/c I don't see how else they might be involved w/ Filipino government.

Yes that is how Churches get involved in politics here, but that doesn't mean that churches should do those things. Churches should stay neutral. Does the US do anything to churches? No. They have no reason to get involved in politics. Churches shouldn't give official opinions or try to lobby a legislator. Yes many other organizations lobby a legislator, but they do it for political reasons, not religious ones.

They lobby a legislator for ideological reasons.
They being churches as well as other organizations.

Members of churches have their opinions, and if their opinions are similar, then they should be allowed to have their organization lobby as much as any other organization is allowed to lobby.

the church isn't separate from the law after all. just from the body that makes and enforces the law, known as the government. then they should have as much of a say in the law as anyone else who isn't separate from the law.

Churches lobby for religious reasons. Members are churches can share their opinions all they want, but the CHURCH should not. And yes the Church is separate from law. They should have no say in the government, because they don't belong in law. They are an institution that is set up for one purpose, to spread their beliefs. The only time Churches should get involved in government is when government tries to make a law banning the church.

Church isn't separate from the law. Churches often run day cares, for example, which have strict legal guidelines. Just separate from the government. (which I'm glad. too many people use their church as an excuse to do stuff that clearly goes against everything that church teaches)

You're right though. Each church is founded based on it's members' beliefs. just like the NRA, for example, is based on it's members' beliefs, or the NAACP is based on it's members' beliefs (or was. I don't remember if they're still around)

What do you mean by religious reasons anyway? The only mention I know of in the bible regarding government says keep your head down & stay out of trouble with the law, but it was said in a way that could also mean keep away from govt. entirely. (at least the translation I read. . .)

Those laws are for every daycare. But there are no laws that strictly apply to churches, except some tax ones. The NRA and NAACP ( yes it is still around) is based on political beliefs not religious ones. Religious reasons meaning, reasons based on their sacred text or sacred beliefs that apply solely to that church.

No, I had a 'real choice' because:
1. My parents weren't religious so didn't actively enforce any religious ideas I had at the time.
2. I was not in a religious community
3. I had room to actually 'question' my religious beliefs and decide it was ultimately not for me.

The parents are the first teachers, and so will thrust religion on to you whether you want to or not. The religious community will reinforcing such religious beliefs as right. It's a constantly reinforcing system for religion where everyone you know is probably religious and will reinforce whatever religious beliefs you have. 'Choice' in such an environment is an illusion imo. Sure, some 'snap out' of it, but most likely: you're staying where you are concerning religion.

Now religion by itself, isn't bad. I can see why believing in a god is comforting to others and some of the values I agree with.

But, it's bad to be political with religion because religious people as above can be swayed with such arguments as: It's in the bible *shows a verse*

As long as you put 'god' or 'sin' somewhere in there: you're swaying some people for non rational reasons.

(pretty much why i get really tired when religious people keep touting their religious book as evidence/proof. It's an 'all encompassing' excuse and not a real reason for me. Personal bias showing obviously. If you say you are against gays, I want to see something other than 'it's an abomination and saids so in the *insert holy book*' because that doesn't fly with me.)

Since this seemed like a huge rant against religion: I'm not against religion. I'm against people who use religion as an excuse to hurt or influence others negatively to do something.

edit:

like this trial judge denied interracial marriage because;

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and He placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with His arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that He separated the races shows that He did not intend for the races to mix."

He should just admit he's a racist rather than using god as an excuse.

Regarding the Topic: I support the bill.

Regarding the Church Debate: Yes the Church has the right to express its opinions BUT only in the manner any other organisation or individual would, and it should not expect or be given, any special consideration or allowed to influence the government any more than any other organisation or individual would.

EDIT: I agree with KTC's post above. Far too many people around me are brainwashed into just accepting what is told to them by 'grown-ups' rather than forming their own opinion about something. My parents are religious Hindus but they gave me the room to question beliefs and form my own opinions so I do not consider myself a Hindu and that is okay with them. IMO, this is the way it should be for everyone, but is not. Most of my friends have probabely never even thought of a possibilty of a life without the religious beliefs taught to them since birth, let alone choose, even though there are no religious restrictions in my country. If your family is from a particular religious sect people automatically assume you believe in that religion too...